Posted by: BigLiberty | May 13, 2008

All-Women Groups, Diet-Talk, and AS

I don’t really know why I have, for the most part, avoided making women friends ever since I “dumped” my group of women friends when I was seventeen.

By “women friends,” I mean a group of women who get together and who keep in close touch, as women. I did make some friends who are women, but that was on an individual basis, and a couple of them were a part of a group that was mostly men.

I know that the opportunity did arise, several times, to become one of “the girls” in an all-female group. I know that I pretended as if the opportunity didn’t exist, or felt so anxious I thrust myself out of the situation as quickly as possible.

Though I’m mostly a political writer, this blog was also meant to explore myself with the hope that a story or experience of mine may help someone out their understand hir own experience. With that in mind, I think I’ll take a moment to reflect on why it might be I’m nervous about being a member of a group of women friends, especially since lately I’ve felt like there’s another opportunity arising.

1. I’ve had bad experiences in an all-women group. The first and last group of women I was friends with saw me through some tough experiences: anorexia, angst, rock-bottom self esteem, cutting and self-harm, sexual abuse, rape, and alcohol poisoning. Of course, all of those occurred nearly exclusively when I was with that group, and some that I took home were actively encouraged my members of the group (like anorexia, cutting, and sexual abuse).

2. Fear of diet/self-hate talk. This is a real fear of mine, part of what made me shy from joining an all-woman group during the time between the “dumping” and now. I’d start getting closer with the women, and as soon as the men left the conversation would eventually get around to body-talk, which for most was essentially diet/self-hate talk. I was, oddly, one of the the thinnest of my friends for a good amount of time, so I felt as if there was a lot of jealousy directed towards me when I wore attractive clothing or makeup, like I was personally trying to show them up (I never was. My friends were beautiful, I just liked dressing up when I went “out” because I spent 90% of my life at the time at a desk in my pajamas, studying). This jealousy would translate into self-hate talk, or diet-talk (there was at least 3 out of 6 who were on a diet at any particular time, myself included). My self-esteem, already low, just couldn’t take the second-hand battering, since when my friends said hateful things about their bodies, it made me feel bad and hate my own body.

3. Feeling like I fundamentally cannot understand Neurotypical women. This played a large role in my fear of becoming a member of an all-women group. My conception of most all-NT-women groups are that they call each other several times a day (or email/IM) — hence some kind of constant connection that to me feels suffocating and co-dependent; the majority of their conversations are complaints about or criticisms of their bodies, boyfriends, jobs, clothing, other women, etc (again, this is my *conception*, not saying this is the truth); they’re required to feel some kind of inherent empathy for each other that creates this “sister-bond” I just do not understand, nor feel. Frankly, when I’m in an all-women group, I tend to take on a very masculine role, and feel very masculine as a result. It’s uncomfortable.

Therefore, a combination of AS, fear of diet-talk, and memories of bad experiences keep me from seeking out all-women groups. I’m also quite alarmed, since I’m feeling like I’m on the verge of being thrust “into the fray” of an all-women group right now, not of my own choice. My to-be sister-in-law, her sister, her daughter and my to-be stepdaughters, are all very close and when we’re together they lapse into all-women group talk, and it’s scary to me. Most of the time I feel like a freak. I just don’t understand them, and I don’t want to be there. I’m much more comfortable hanging out with the men, as we talk about house renovations, weather, music, science fiction, TV, cars.

Do any of these experiences resonate with you? What are your personal pros/cons associated with all-women groups, and how do you perceive them?

Posted in Asperger, My Story, Self-Esteem

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Responses

Hi.

Reading this I found myself sighing, nodding my head, and remembering the days when my girlfriends sucked.

To let you know where I’m coming from, I’m fat & I’m a woman. I’ve been part of groups that turned out to be frenemies instead of the Golden Girls on more than several occasions.

It all changed about five years ago I started networking for my small business. I realized meeting other business owners and freelancers that there were always “groups of women” - and they either bonded over misery or bonded over industry or they bonded over sheer friendliness.

The most prevalent group BY FAR are groups of women who have bonded and become a group over shared misery, trauma, or general malaise. These groups are to be avoided unless you’re feeling like getting calls at 2am from unstable chicks or you need someone you can call at 2am when you’re feeling unstable. They feed off of each other’s misery.

But there are groups of women out there it’s worth being a part of. The group that’s closest to my heart is a few ladies I met through a professional womens group. I’m really friendly so I tend to have more people wanting to be close to me than I want to be to other people…but I’ve been camp counsellor to hundreds of broken chicks and now I know it’s not my problem. I do not have to take on someone elses trauma. One time (because I’m a bad person LOL) someone at a networking event told me during our first conversation ever, “You know, I was raped.” I forgot to take a moment to filter and my honest resopnse was, “Haven’t we all?” and I laughed a little and moved on in the conversation.

The other thing I do is keep different types of friends away from each other. I do have one miserable friend, and she has never met my business friends, my business friends aren’t invited to the same party as my friends that like beer and go to bars. They just wouldn’t get along, and each individual in each group has something different to offer. If I get a new client, I call the friend who is successful already and we “squee” together. Sure I tell my other friends I got the client, but if they aren’t as successful as I am it would be rude to expect them to be as excited for me when they’re struggling.

Ok, I’m wrapping up the longest comment ever now :)

Women friends are worth having. You just have to find the right ones, but they’re worth searching for!

By: abundanceweb on May 13, 2008
at 2:28 pm

I so relate to this post. I usually have one or two women friends at a time, and it’s very unusual for me to have more than one that I’m really close to (most people are in that “outer circle” of acquaintances, not in the “inner circle”). My daughter-in-law has 3 sisters and 4 brothers and when she has a family shindig that I’m invited to (like my grandson’s confirmation last weekend), it’s the most uncomfortable thing in the world for me to attend. I love her and I can talk to her, but her sisters and her brothers’ wives are another story. I don’t have anything in common with them (I’m not on a diet, I don’t have little kids at home, I’m not into cooking, I’m not obsessed with my husband, and I refuse to talk about diets/losing weight). I end up in the room where all the men have congregated and talking with them (cars, hunting, fishing, 4-wheeling, snowmobiling, politics).
I think I’ve had two women friends in the last 45 years (I’m 54) that I really clicked with, and they were like me, didn’t really get along with most other women. The one I don’t even keep in touch with since I left Illinois, and the other one died 11 years ago. I have a couple of on-line women friends that I would love to meet IRL, but as we live several states apart, that may never happen. I’ve always been a loner, more at home with my books and crafts and sewing than with people, and when I am around people, I tend to gravitate to men (I don’t think I’ve ever been in a conversation with a group of men who talked about how clothes didn’t fit and they just needed to lose a few pounds and they hated this or that part of their body and what diet or exercise plan they were following or how their SO was abusive or their relationship sucked). I don’t think men generally talk about things like that (I’ve been on the edge of the room when it’s all men, not actually in the group, and I’ve never heard this kind of talk from them, even when they didn’t know I was listening). I think I’ve always been an oddball and never quite fit in, and it’s never really bothered me a whole lot.
I don’t have any trouble with women one-on-one, it’s groups of them that I can’t handle, and don’t want to be around most of the time. That group dynamic is what I don’t understand and don’t feel a need to be a part of.

By: vesta44 on May 13, 2008
at 5:11 pm

Yeah, it all resonates with me. I was going to go into a big spiel, but I can’t do it right right now. But yes, I know what you mean, although my issues vary. I can let diet talk slide to some degree (though I’ll ignore it completely) while I can’t stand man-bashing - something that seems to happen every time I’m involved with a group of women. It’s all so different online; I’ve met so many women of sorts that I almost never come across in real life.

By: anniemcphee on May 13, 2008
at 8:44 pm

I’ve only had one experience with an all-woman group of friends: a “book club” I started four years ago that long since grew into a close-knit group of friends (we haven’t read a book together in years). I love them. I couldn’t tell you what we talk about when we’re all together - honestly, it’s just whatever comes up. A lot of the time it’ll be work stuff or relationship stuff, and often it’s politics, sometimes it’s gossip about people we know in common. I don’t think we’ve ever talked about dieting (I know one of them is dieting, but she’s only mentioned it in passing). It’s really great.

These days, my other friend group is a mix of women (gay, straight, bi - one of each) and gay men. The last time I hung out with some of that crowd, we actually had a conversation about fat acceptance (spurred on by a scornful reading of “Eat This Not That”). In the past, I’ve had groups of friends that were all men, and mixed groups.

Anyway, I have no point. I’d just never thought about the gender of my friends before.

By: fatgirlonadate on May 14, 2008
at 3:53 am

I don’t have a lot of friends, period. I usually blame it either on my propensity towards social anxiety (thanks, mom!) or on my laziness re: making an effort to make long-term relationships work - depending on the appropriate level of self-loathing at any given time. At the moment, I’d say that aside from my boyfriend (who I’m obviously best friends with), I have two really close friends - a girl and a gay guy.

The truth is - without attempting to make myself look different and special - I am rather quirky and even though I enjoy a lot of girly stuff like make-up and gossip, I seem to be incapable of connecting with the vast majority of people on a more-than-just-superficial level. Is it because of my anti-diet and anti-self-hate stance? Probably not. I think that the general vibe I give off when around people is: ‘I’d rather be alone right now’ and ‘I’m not that interested in you’ and hey, that vibe ain’t lyin’. I enjoy my own company quite a bit - I mean, what else is an only child supposed to do then learn to enjoy his or her own company - and the times when I truly long for some interpersonal intimacy are few and far between.

Anyways, my point is: being a bit of an oddball is a good thing. A quirky kind of person may have fewer friends, but they’re usually worth it. Be they male or female.

By: Bee on May 14, 2008
at 6:02 pm

I’m Aspie too, and know exactly how you feel about #3. Do you also get that feeling of, “Well eventually I’ll run out of things to talk about, and what do I do then?!” Cause I feel that way all the time when it comes to long conversations, heck even in some cases long IM conversations. You can only talk about what’s on TV for so long.

I also feel alot of times that my interests are things nobody would find interesting. I mean, as one might call it, geek interests. Then, as I found out from some Aspie chats, I’m not even geeky enough to fit in with the geeks. So it’s like I’m not here nor there.

Also when it comes to Aspie guys, they seem to act like cause there are so few Aspie girls supposedly, that they have to pratically attack a girl when they hear they’re Aspie, and assume that they have the same nerdy interests as they do. I had to leave a shyness group, because that happened. Cause you can’t exactly turn them down, cause they might get angry or think well who are you to think you’re better than me, you’re Aspie too!

I don’t know. I guess what would be worse is if they start crying, and you’re sitting there with that face from Anime cartoons, that look like this. (-_-’ ;) I also have had parents actually out and out insist I get involved with their sons, cause I’m Aspie and out of some sense of either pity or “I could’ve ended up like them” I’m obligated to have something to do with them. This really has made me angry. Cause it isn’t I don’t want something to do with them cause they’re the r-word. It’s cause I have nothing in common with them, and just because I’m “learning disabled” doesn’t mean I’m obligated to babysitting people who I have nothing in common with.

Yes I know alot of people in the disabilities community feel the term babysitting is infantilizing, and they’re adults they just communicate in a different way. I understand that, but they have to see when someone is told they are obligated to spend time with a group of people, who they may not have the ability to tolerate..not out of a personal thing. More out of that Aspies have paticular sensory defensiveness issues, like I have a sensitivity to sudden loud noises. That make it difficult to be around those who may behave in a unpredictable fashion. Of course, since the Aspie has no idea how difficult it is for the other person, they have to spend time with them even if it’s overwhelming for them cause they don’t look like their child.

Which ties into the whole invisible disability issue, and how people who get support are the ones that have the most pity factor and all that. I got off on a bit of a rant, so to clear things up what I’m basically saying is I’m tired of being told I must socialize with NTs who I don’t get. Or other Aspies, Auties, or whomever because I’m one of them, and I’d be an insensitive b***h if I didn’t support them because appearantly we all struggle with the same issues, which is not true.

So what I’m saying in general, is that it’s not that Aspies don’t know how to be social in my opinion. It’s that people who aren’t Aspie don’t know how to be properly social. That is listen to other people’s interests and comment on them, rather than assuming everyone give’s a damn about who got voted off last night on American Idol or whatever. That probably comes off as elitist, but I can’t really see any other way of seeing it. I mean after years of being told you’re the one with the problem, you tend to think “Maybe it’s not me, maybe it’s other people who are the one’s with the problem, cause they can’t see past their own shoelaces when it comes to another person’s P.O.V.”

By: violetyoshi on May 15, 2008
at 6:45 am

These are all such great comments — most are post-worthy themselves! — and I’m going to take some time to answer them. But quickly, I just wanted to say to violet_yoshi — there are some out there who don’t consider AS a disability, just a difference. A prominent autism researcher made the claim in a paper (I’ll have to do some digging for you on that one, but it’s out there) that if the majority of people were Aspies, the world would work somewhat differently, but just as “cohesively” as the world works now. Greater logic and lesser empathy doesn’t equal disabled. Ability to take in more information, though of course sensitive to “too much” since our filters are different, doesn’t equal disabled. I can remember scores of songs, paint and draw with stunning realism, never get lost when I’m driving, etc because of my ability to absorb more raw information than NTs.

I think some of your problems stem from having *others* view your AS as a disability, not a difference. They’re the ones that are behind the science, sweetie, trust me. We have different neurological profiles, but when did higher-than-average IQ, perfect pitch, great attention to detail, and a fundamental honesty and logic become disabilities, anyway? It’s just the classic push to turn “difference” into “inferiority” by the majority. If you catch my drift.

And I so get the anime tear-drop face…I think I *was* that face in high school. :) You need to talk with some like-minded Aspie women. Our profiles are different from Aspie men, and not all Aspie men are the same, either. Your best bet might be to find an Aspie guy who doesn’t *know* he’s an Aspie guy, but shares your profile and interests. Worked for me lol :)

By: BigLiberty on May 15, 2008
at 11:25 am

WRT to #3, introverted NTs have those problems too. I don’t give a rat’s ass about American Idol or most of anything else that’s in popular culture ATM, I neither have nor want a whole gaggle of gal-pals (and never have), and I loathe telephones. So, you’re not alone in that respect. Most NTs are extroverts, but they’re not extroverted because they’re NT.

By: Chicken Girl on May 16, 2008
at 2:07 am

Very true, CG. Some of my closest friends growing up weren’t Aspies, they were introverted NT’s.

Love your site, by the way. :)

By: BigLiberty on May 16, 2008
at 11:29 am

I joined an ‘all girls book club’, but I think I killed it… And I actually enjoyed talking about the books, what the author tried to say, and how it dovetailed (or not) with our own life experiences….

But I was not keen on ‘talking about the girl who didn’t show up that night’, and my assessment of the books was also somewhat different… Yet, from within a month of me joining, ALL the arrangements and details were left up to me, because ‘I was so well-balanced’ (translate - not given to emotional fits if other people did not think the same things as I did about a book we read, and saying we should not discuss people who are not present)…and when I tried to ‘hand off’ that ‘organizing’ aspect, the group just sort of never met again!

I do still miss them!

By: xanthippa on May 17, 2008
at 6:06 am

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